the fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling, the continuing budget resolution. everything is used as a bargaining chip to get their way in this very ideological way. you said you don't doubt the congressman's sincerity on deficit reduction. i do. when you look at the fact that he didn't vote for the fiscal cliff deal. if you're talking about deficit reduction from raising revenues, he's not on board at all. he only wants to see it come from cuts. so it's a specific piece of ideology that he is coming from. i think it's abhorrent to use something like disaster relief as a chip to get your way. >> richard, they're also threatening government shutdown. are there any boundaries to some -- and these are not all republicans, but these extreme republicans when it comes to their ideology no matter who it hurts? >> they blinked last time they got to the point of default. and thank goodness. the credit rating went down. and the cost of borrowing to this country on the very deficits they cared about, they went up. so there's not a whole lot of sense here. there's a lot of